http://openluna.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Len&feedformat=atomOpenLuna - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T13:49:38ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.20.3http://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2010-02-10T17:23:56Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
==An idea to reduce the volume of the payload==<br />
<br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
<br />
By filling the inflatable items on the mission with expanding foam (it comes in various densities) things such as the sleeping cubes, the tables and chairs, and room dividers are all items that can be collapsed to a fraction of the volume of standard items. Since the expanding foam generates CO2 it will self inflate the object. <br />
<br />
The foam comes in several different densities - ranging from styrofoam to rock. Filling inflatables with foam will have the benefit of adding rigidity to the item. <br />
<br />
This assumes that the foam will expand normally in a vacuum at lunar gravity levels and it should be noted that the foam is temperature sensitive during expansion - extensive testing would be required.<br />
<br />
This is another off of the shelf solution available to the mission.<br />
<br />
== A new request==<br />
<br />
<br />
[[User:Paul|Paul]] 05:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC) - I would like to see a floor plan that is sausage shaped, all inflatable, and designed for microgravity use. It would only need two locks, (They may need to be something that can dock to an ISS standard dock.) and a small suit prep room. It would be used for space travel, sort of like a cheap ship for a Near Earth Object (NEO) mission. (Call it 120 days habitation for four people.) with two weeks on the "surface" where it may be tethered (or at least in orbit around).<br />
<br />
When we are done with it, we could use it as a ship to transfer from Earth to Luna for the tourists. (Kind of like a powered cycler.)<br />
<br />
[User:Len|Len]] 10:06 February 10, 2010 - If the Inflatable were to be filled with expanding foam the overall strength would improve as would the ability to repair hull breaches without the worry of the hull collapsing. On the flip side, hull fabric would be more susceptible to <br />
penetration by hard or sharp edges it would not flex (in the event of accidental contact) as would a gas filled hull.<br />
<br />
<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 29 November, 2009 An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 01:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC) This round hab feels good. I'm looking forward to seeing how you prefer to attach the floor. I think it should just mirror the roof for simplicity and faster construction. How are the dome ends attached to the cylinder walls? An advantage is that this could be made from nasa external H2 tanks. We all know how eager nasa is to help the civilian space program. [not]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2010-02-08T04:08:13Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2-3 meters, with 2-3 meters of regolith overburden. Say 6-10 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. (all inflatable furnature/barriers, filled with varying densities and consistencies of spray foam) There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters as a dust mitigation lock, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry) Depending on the location though. (see <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is 16x9 wide screen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
<br />
==An idea to reduce the volume of the payload==<br />
<br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
<br />
By filling the inflatable items on the mission with expanding foam (it comes in various densities) things such as the sleeping cubes, the tables and chairs, and room dividers are all items that can be collapsed to a fraction of the volume of standard items. Since the expanding foam generates CO2 it will self inflate the object. <br />
<br />
The foam comes in several different densities - ranging from styrofoam to rock. Filling inflatables with foam will have the benefit of adding rigidity to the item. <br />
<br />
This assumes that the foam will expand normally in a vacuum at lunar gravity levels and it should be noted that the foam is temperature sensitive during expansion - extensive testing would be required.<br />
<br />
This is another off of the shelf solution available to the mission.<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout_-1a.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A revised proposed floor plan showing emergency escape tube</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Lunar outpost designs]]<br />
[[Category:Modular pieces of equipment]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2010-02-08T04:03:46Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
==An idea to reduce the volume of the payload==<br />
<br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
<br />
By filling the inflatable items on the mission with expanding foam (it comes in various densities) things such as the sleeping cubes, the tables and chairs, and room dividers are all items that can be collapsed to a fraction of the volume of standard items. Since the expanding foam generates CO2 it will self inflate the object. <br />
<br />
The foam comes in several different densities - ranging from styrofoam to rock. Filling inflatables with foam will have the benefit of adding rigidity to the item. <br />
<br />
This assumes that the foam will expand normally in a vacuum at lunar gravity levels and it should be noted that the foam is temperature sensitive during expansion - extensive testing would be required.<br />
<br />
This is another off of the shelf solution available to the mission.<br />
<br />
== A new request==<br />
<br />
<br />
[[User:Paul|Paul]] 05:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC) - I would like to see a floor plan that is sausage shaped, all inflatable, and designed for microgravity use. It would only need two locks, (They may need to be something that can dock to an ISS standard dock.) and a small suit prep room. It would be used for space travel, sort of like a cheap ship for a Near Earth Object (NEO) mission. (Call it 120 days habitation for four people.) with two weeks on the "surface" where it may be tethered (or at least in orbit around).<br />
<br />
When we are done with it, we could use it as a ship to transfer from Earth to Luna for the tourists. (Kind of like a powered cycler.)<br />
<br />
<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 29 November, 2009 An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 01:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC) This round hab feels good. I'm looking forward to seeing how you prefer to attach the floor. I think it should just mirror the roof for simplicity and faster construction. How are the dome ends attached to the cylinder walls? An advantage is that this could be made from nasa external H2 tanks. We all know how eager nasa is to help the civilian space program. [not]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2010-02-07T00:01:57Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2 meters, with two meters of regolith overburden. Say 3-5 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters to keep dust down, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is widescreen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout_-1a.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A revised proposed floor plan showing emergency escape tube</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Lunar outpost designs]]<br />
[[Category:Modular pieces of equipment]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2010-02-06T23:52:50Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2 meters, with two meters of regolith overburden. Say 3-5 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters to keep dust down, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is widescreen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout_-1a.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Lunar outpost designs]]<br />
[[Category:Modular pieces of equipment]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2010-02-06T23:48:28Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2 meters, with two meters of regolith overburden. Say 3-5 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters to keep dust down, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is widescreen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout_-1a.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Lunar outpost designs]]<br />
[[Category:Modular pieces of equipment]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2010-02-06T23:43:02Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2 meters, with two meters of regolith overburden. Say 3-5 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters to keep dust down, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is widescreen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Lunar outpost designs]]<br />
[[Category:Modular pieces of equipment]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2010-02-06T23:42:23Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2 meters, with two meters of regolith overburden. Say 3-5 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters to keep dust down, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is widescreen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1a.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Lunar outpost designs]]<br />
[[Category:Modular pieces of equipment]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=File:Igloo_Layout_-1a.jpgFile:Igloo Layout -1a.jpg2010-02-06T23:41:26Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-12-09T05:04:57Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 29 November, 2009 An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 01:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC) This round hab feels good. I'm looking forward to seeing how you prefer to attach the floor. I think it should just mirror the roof for simplicity and faster construction. How are the dome ends attached to the cylinder walls? An advantage is that this could be made from nasa external H2 tanks. We all know how eager nasa is to help the civilian space program. [not]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-12-06T03:02:34Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 29 November, 2009 An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-12-06T03:01:56Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]29 November, 2009 An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-11-29T18:37:36Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-11-29T18:36:20Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
==== Standard Module Construction ====<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-11-29T04:37:07Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-11-29T04:33:56Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-11-29T04:30:32Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[--[User:Len|Len]]:An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-11-29T04:28:41Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]:An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-11-29T04:27:11Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|Revision 3 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions to the outpost drawing by Len, which I fundamentally change his multi-room outpost idea into a tiny first-habitation [[lunar lodge]] (discussion branches off here) type of structure. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
----<br />
Safety... One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Two things that could prevent access to the front foyer, a fire in that end of the hab and a roof blowout/cave-in. Keeping the doorlock area clear of everything, not just flammables, is job one.<br />
Since air pressure is all that's holding up the ceiling, a blowout would drop the roof on the entire hab. Game over. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== [[RegoDust]] Control. ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]This topic moved to its own new page to reduce clutter here.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. A show stopper for inflatables or just something to think about when considering the habskin? Stress lines and stretch marks?. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust. The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.[[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC) It may be that the de-duster has to touch the dust to ground it out, de-ionize it, and that means the tube would need to be chock full of bristles. ?? If so, since LunarGrav is only one eigth that of earth, the Mooney can't fall hard and could just drop down, pull himself down, through a tube of bristles. And maybe include a gas blower, CO2 perhaps.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
[--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 18:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)This idea is for the two-roomed hab version. I moved this paragraph down from the headline top of the page because habitation images make the top look better and because this idea of a big dirty lab is less appropriate than using a fume hood in a clean hab. See [[RegoDust]] control.]<br />
*The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
<br />
<br />
== An alternate possibility for the Outpost ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]:An 8 meter dia igloo provides approximately 50 square meters of floor space. The center column could contain a light tube to bring sunlight from the surface to solar panels under the circular work surface. An outer shell for the center column would serve as a center support for the dome.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=File:Igloo_Layout-1.jpgFile:Igloo Layout-1.jpg2009-11-29T04:07:17Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2009-11-29T04:06:33Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2 meters, with two meters of regolith overburden. Say 3-5 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters to keep dust down, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is widescreen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=OutpostOutpost2009-11-29T03:55:14Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Outpost_in_use_outside.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>What it might look like in use, from the outside.</center>]]<br />
<br />
Current thinking is a small/inflatable buried structure with absolute minimal facilities. An inflatable 4 metre diameter tube roughly 6 metre long, laying on its side, buried 2 meters, with two meters of regolith overburden. Say 3-5 bunks on a wall, a couple desks, a RV style shower/head and a small sink. Maybe if we are really lucky a place to heat food. There will probably be three airlocks, one outer lock leading to a suit room, a second lock between the suit room and the living quarters to keep dust down, and a third as an emergency exit. There will be a limited amount of water recycling, and until we get the in-situ resource manufacturing down, most supplies will need to be brought it. Of course power will be supplied by solar panels over the overburden, (A little more protection) and perhaps as a sun shade over some of the external equipment. Power storage for overnight is still in the 'air'. (Sorry)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Click on thumbnails below for two sized illustrations suitable for computer desktop bitmaps, one is 4x3 aspect ratio, the other is widescreen.'''<br />
<br />
<center><gallery><br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1024x768.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1024x768<br />
Image:Outpost_desktop_1680x1050.jpg|What it might look like in use, from the outside. 1680x1050</gallery></center><br />
<br />
[[Image:Igloo_Layout-1.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:Top.jpg|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed floor plan</center>]]<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge1 OpenLuna.gif|thumb|900px|none|<center>A proposed minimalist initial habitation</center>]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:RegoDustTalk:RegoDust2009-07-07T16:18:38Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>Here is where we post Regolith dusty ideas that aren't ready for prime time, ie, published on the front side of this page.<br />
<br />
for instance, I know lith means stone but what's a Rego?<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 07:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
According to Wikipedia:<br />
<br />
Regolith (Greek: Ρηγόλιθος) is a layer of loose, heterogeneous material covering solid rock. The term is a combination of two Greek words: Rhegos (Greek: Ρήγος), which means blanket, and Lithos (Greek: Λίθος), which means rock. It includes dust, soil, broken rock, and other related materials and is present on Earth, the Moon, some asteroids, and other planets. The term was first defined by George P. Merrill in 1897 who stated, "In places this covering is made up of material originating through rock-weathering or plant growth in situ. In other instances it is of fragmental and more or less decomposed matter drifted by wind, water or ice from other sources. This entire mantle of unconsolidated material, whatever its nature or origin, it is proposed to call the regolith." <ref>Merrill, G. P. (1897) ''Rocks, rock-weathering and soils,'' New York: MacMillan Company, 411p.</ref><br />
:--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 17:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)mmm. thanks Len -- a blanket of rock fragments of any size. And regolith can be on any body, not only Luna. <br />
*I like one definition of how Lunar regolith got there: "bedrock '''''churned''''' by meteorites." That gave me a vision of Luna suffering millenia of meteor strikes re-striking previous strikes, on and on forever, perpetual dart board of meteors.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 03:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC) For more info on regolith see http://tiny.cc/IiH3L<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 16:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC) Another article on regolith -- Interesting mining section. http://tiny.cc/STj1w</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:RegoDustTalk:RegoDust2009-07-07T03:49:54Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>Here is where we post Regolith dusty ideas that aren't ready for prime time, ie, published on the front side of this page.<br />
<br />
for instance, I know lith means stone but what's a Rego?<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 07:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
According to Wikipedia:<br />
<br />
Regolith (Greek: Ρηγόλιθος) is a layer of loose, heterogeneous material covering solid rock. The term is a combination of two Greek words: Rhegos (Greek: Ρήγος), which means blanket, and Lithos (Greek: Λίθος), which means rock. It includes dust, soil, broken rock, and other related materials and is present on Earth, the Moon, some asteroids, and other planets. The term was first defined by George P. Merrill in 1897 who stated, "In places this covering is made up of material originating through rock-weathering or plant growth in situ. In other instances it is of fragmental and more or less decomposed matter drifted by wind, water or ice from other sources. This entire mantle of unconsolidated material, whatever its nature or origin, it is proposed to call the regolith." <ref>Merrill, G. P. (1897) ''Rocks, rock-weathering and soils,'' New York: MacMillan Company, 411p.</ref><br />
:--[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] 17:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)mmm. thanks Len -- a blanket of rock fragments of any size. And regolith can be on any body, not only Luna. <br />
*I like one definition of how Lunar regolith got there: "bedrock '''''churned''''' by meteorites." That gave me a vision of Luna suffering millenia of meteor strikes re-striking previous strikes, on and on forever, perpetual dart board of meteors.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 03:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC) For more info on regolith see http://tiny.cc/IiH3L</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:RegoDustTalk:RegoDust2009-07-06T07:32:22Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>Here is where we post Regolith dusty ideas that aren't ready for prime time, ie, published on the front side of this page.<br />
<br />
for instance, I know lith means stone but what's a Rego?<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 07:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
According to Wikipedia:<br />
<br />
Regolith (Greek: Ρηγόλιθος) is a layer of loose, heterogeneous material covering solid rock. The term is a combination of two Greek words: Rhegos (Greek: Ρήγος), which means blanket, and Lithos (Greek: Λίθος), which means rock. It includes dust, soil, broken rock, and other related materials and is present on Earth, the Moon, some asteroids, and other planets. The term was first defined by George P. Merrill in 1897 who stated, "In places this covering is made up of material originating through rock-weathering or plant growth in situ. In other instances it is of fragmental and more or less decomposed matter drifted by wind, water or ice from other sources. This entire mantle of unconsolidated material, whatever its nature or origin, it is proposed to call the regolith." <ref>Merrill, G. P. (1897) ''Rocks, rock-weathering and soils,'' New York: MacMillan Company, 411p.</ref></div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:RegoDustTalk:RegoDust2009-07-06T07:29:46Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>Here is where we post Regolith dusty ideas that aren't ready for prime time, ie, published on the front side of this page.<br />
<br />
for instance, I know lith means stone but what's a Rego?<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 07:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
According to Wikipedia:<br />
<br />
Regolith (Greek: Ρηγόλιθος) is a layer of loose, heterogeneous material covering solid rock. The term is a combination of two Greek words: Rhegos (Greek: Ρήγος), which means blanket, and Lithos (Greek: Λίθος), which means rock. It includes dust, soil, broken rock, and other related materials and is present on Earth, the Moon, some asteroids, and other planets. The term was first defined by George P. Merrill in 1897 who stated, "In places this covering is made up of material originating through rock-weathering or plant growth in situ. In other instances it is of fragmental and more or less decomposed matter drifted by wind, water or ice from other sources. This entire mantle of unconsolidated material, whatever its nature or origin, it is proposed to call the regolith."[1</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:What_If_for_OutpostTalk:What If for Outpost2009-07-04T08:44:12Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>Starting up this page now, July1,2009 [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 08:44, 4 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
:<br />
Maybe we can follow the thread a little easier if we precede any changes <br />
or additions with username/date [short cut is 4 tildes]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=File:Dust_Reduction_Layout.jpgFile:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg2009-07-01T04:52:21Z<p>Len: uploaded a new version of "Image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg"</p>
<hr />
<div>Dust reduction proposal</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=File:Dust_Reduction_Layout.jpgFile:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg2009-07-01T04:48:10Z<p>Len: uploaded a new version of "Image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg"</p>
<hr />
<div>Dust reduction proposal</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=File:Dust_Reduction_Layout.jpgFile:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg2009-07-01T04:40:09Z<p>Len: uploaded a new version of "Image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg"</p>
<hr />
<div>Dust reduction proposal</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-07-01T04:34:19Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
:<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
What gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment.<br />
<br />
'''Electrostatic Brush?''' I'm imagining some kind of electrostatic vibrating brush which the LunarNaut passes over his suit and it ''pulls'' the RegoDust off. If it works, this seems preferable to using precious rare gasses to blow the dust. [Time for a specialist scientist,s take on this?]<br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems like a good idea to remove ''most'' dust ''before'' going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated in all LunaHab plans. It has to stand on the front porch beside the front door with a catwalk grating porch floor.<br />
<br />
----<br />
Would raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. Not a show stopper for inflatables, just something to think about when considering the habskin. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.<br />
<br />
The style of the living/work area is arbitrary and shown only for reference.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-07-01T04:28:18Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
:<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
What gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment.<br />
<br />
'''Electrostatic Brush?''' I'm imagining some kind of electrostatic vibrating brush which the LunarNaut passes over his suit and it ''pulls'' the RegoDust off. If it works, this seems preferable to using precious rare gasses to blow the dust. [Time for a specialist scientist,s take on this?]<br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems like a good idea to remove ''most'' dust ''before'' going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated in all LunaHab plans. It has to stand on the front porch beside the front door with a catwalk grating porch floor.<br />
<br />
----<br />
Would raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. Not a show stopper for inflatables, just something to think about when considering the habskin. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 04:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-07-01T04:25:52Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
:<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
What gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment.<br />
<br />
'''Electrostatic Brush?''' I'm imagining some kind of electrostatic vibrating brush which the LunarNaut passes over his suit and it ''pulls'' the RegoDust off. If it works, this seems preferable to using precious rare gasses to blow the dust. [Time for a specialist scientist,s take on this?]<br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems like a good idea to remove ''most'' dust ''before'' going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated in all LunaHab plans. It has to stand on the front porch beside the front door with a catwalk grating porch floor.<br />
<br />
----<br />
Would raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. Not a show stopper for inflatables, just something to think about when considering the habskin. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
[[image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]--Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-07-01T04:24:39Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''====================[[=================================='''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
:<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
What gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment.<br />
<br />
'''Electrostatic Brush?''' I'm imagining some kind of electrostatic vibrating brush which the LunarNaut passes over his suit and it ''pulls'' the RegoDust off. If it works, this seems preferable to using precious rare gasses to blow the dust. [Time for a specialist scientist,s take on this?]<br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems like a good idea to remove ''most'' dust ''before'' going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated in all LunaHab plans. It has to stand on the front porch beside the front door with a catwalk grating porch floor.<br />
<br />
----<br />
Would raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. Not a show stopper for inflatables, just something to think about when considering the habskin. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-07-01T04:23:34Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
:<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
What gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment.<br />
<br />
'''Electrostatic Brush?''' I'm imagining some kind of electrostatic vibrating brush which the LunarNaut passes over his suit and it ''pulls'' the RegoDust off. If it works, this seems preferable to using precious rare gasses to blow the dust. [Time for a specialist scientist,s take on this?]<br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems like a good idea to remove ''most'' dust ''before'' going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated in all LunaHab plans. It has to stand on the front porch beside the front door with a catwalk grating porch floor.<br />
<br />
----<br />
Would raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.<br />
<br />
OK, thanks for the numbers. But the regolith cover is >3 meters thick, or 9' or nearly twice that weight or two 2 lbs per square inch on the top curve. Not a lot but it should pack down with hab vibes and put wear on the inflatable fabric. Not a show stopper for inflatables, just something to think about when considering the habskin. [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
== Dust Reduction Possibility ??? ==<br />
image:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the reduction of dust [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
Assuming that there is a charge inherent to fine grain surface regolith, would it be possible to use a foil lined decent tube to attract it by placing a reverse charge on the foil. After exiting the tube the charge could be reversed repelling the regolith from the foil and allowing it to fall into a collection pit.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=File:Dust_Reduction_Layout.jpgFile:Dust Reduction Layout.jpg2009-07-01T04:12:14Z<p>Len: Dust reduction proposal</p>
<hr />
<div>Dust reduction proposal</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T21:42:13Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
:<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
What gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment. <br />
----<br />
Would raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T21:29:30Z<p>Len: /* De-Duster Gazebo */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
:<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
What gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment. <br />
----<br />
Would raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T21:13:30Z<p>Len: /* Dust Control. */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC): <br />
''What'' gas are you going to compress to blow the dust off with? You would have to have a scrubber to capture the exhaust from the airlock and as you say, you can not mechanically filter out all of the dust. The residual would destroy the compressor. Conversion of regolith to to a gas (assuming that it is possible)would require the transport of additional mfg equipment. <br />
----<br />
''Would'' raising the humidity level in the airlock attach water molecules to the regolith making itm less likely to pass through the filters?<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T21:12:54Z<p>Len: /* A couple possible floor plan options. */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]] 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I'm not quite convinced. Airlocks can be built for different uses. An emergency airlock can have a pretty simple door mechanism and austere furnishings. Think about how a dry bag seals against water. (multiple folds and finally a clip to hold it shut) I don't think this is the design you want for daily use, but occasional would be fine. Also the bigger an airlock is, then the more gasses you will need to pump out for depressurisation. Since you never get it all, you will also lose more when you finally open the door. (look at the Space shuttle's N2 use for EVAs) <br />
<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.<br />
<br />
== Force loads ==<br />
[[user:snyder|snyder]]] I think all Habs are 'inflatable' in a sense. Even an ISS module expands a little when pressurized. Think about using spheres and cylinders because of hoop stress. Internal fittings can make flat floors much easier than making a flat pressure vessile. The loads are really large. consider between 3 and 15 pounds of force for EVERY square inch.<br />
As for the loading of soil from above, lets see .... call regolith density say 0.20 lbs / cubic inch (I dunno, steel is about 0.35), and lunar gravity is 1/6 gee. so 5 feet of regolith on top of a hab weighs about 1 lb. <br />
not much compared with the internal pressure pushing out.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T18:29:29Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:27:54Z<p>Len: /* Standard Module Construction */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.<br />
<br />
[[User:Len|Len]]: The more we can standardize (and off the shelf '''rocks''') the lower the mission costs will be.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:20:39Z<p>Len: /* Standard Module Construction */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]: This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:19:42Z<p>Len: /* Dust Control. */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]: From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:17:17Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
[[user:Len|Len]] From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? <br />
No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. <br />
Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, <br />
I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury.<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:16:29Z<p>Len: /* Dust/Talc */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:14:17Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]]<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
===Dust/Talc===<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury. <br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:12:44Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[User:Len|Len]] 17:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
===Dust/Talc===<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury. <br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:09:05Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
By: [[user:Len|Len]].<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
===Dust/Talc===<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury. <br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T17:00:36Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
[[user:Len|Len]].<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
===Dust/Talc===<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury. <br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Lenhttp://openluna.org/wiki/index.php?title=What_If_for_OutpostWhat If for Outpost2009-06-29T16:59:14Z<p>Len: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''This Page is for the wild ideas we all have.'''<br />
<br />
'''======================================================'''<br />
<br />
REDIRECT [[Talk:Outpost]] <== Click here to return to the Outpost Discussion page<br />
<br />
* List your idea here:<br />
<br />
<br />
== Using the suit room as a "[[dirty lab]]" == <br />
for studying lunar regolith and rocks'''<br />
:<br />
The suit and equipment room is quite large and will presumably be well ventilated*. On the other hand, the living quarters and lab will be relatively congested, and we wouldn't want to bring lunar regolith into this clean living area due to its toxic nature (which we don't fully understand, and need to study). Therefore I suggest we designate one or more of the gear storage areas in the suit and equipment room as a lab bench, specifically for studying physical and chemical properties of the lunar regolith. Many of these studies will need to be conducted outside of the habitat, but for the few that will need to be conducted inside the habitat (exact studies yet to be determined by the [[OpenLuna Science]] team; suggestions welcome), this space would be ideal.<br />
:<br />
== Fume Hood ==<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]'''Fume hood''' techniques would isolate the regodust in a glass cabinet with intrusive gloves. It's actually like a tiny separate room for rego specimen.<br />
Good ventilation* of living spaces is luxury. Keeping the smaller airlock free of dust is easier and it must become a clean room after every use. No silicosis needed, thanks.<br />
:<br />
== A couple possible floor plan options. == <br />
[[user:Len|Len]].<br />
[[Image:COLORIZED_FLR_PLAN.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan. From [[user:Len|Len]]]]<br />
[[Image:Outpost_3_view.jpg|thumb|900px|An alternate floor plan three view from [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
I love Quonsets! There's a reason they were shipped all over the world for wartime spaces. That's why I wonder what is the rationale for the "inflatable" hab idea? Besides light weight, I mean.<br />
<br />
Note that the airlock between rooms can and perhaps should be just an airtight door since it is a redundant airlock and ther'll never be vacuum on one side of it since it isn't an exit door.<br />
<br />
- Well - It's possible to have a vacuum in the Dirty Lab, if they needed to have the lock completely open to get something big in it, (Like a stretcher or a bad piece of larger hardware for repair.) or shovelling a bunch of material in or out. Also, We really wanted a small room to be sealed for a last vacuum cleaning (dust removal) before entering the living quarters.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Inflatable? ==<br />
Size and weight. The Quonsets shape is being considered because of the strength to height ratio. Please look around and make more suggestions or help us detail this. We are wanting to move to a first stage analogue soon. [[User:Paul|Paul]] 01:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Lighter simpler and easier. Granted in spades. Yeah but... I'm starting to worry about the response of an inflatable structure to having tons of regolith dumped on it. ?? [3-meter cosmic shielding] <br />
<br />
I kinda like the alternate idea of bolting two Quonset Huts bottom-to-bottom to make one cylinder. ?? Darn. I'm sorry. But. A buried hab will flex, won't it, when pressure variations and temperature fluctuations occur? Seems like this'll stress a fabric hab skin faster than an aluminum alloy Quonset.<br />
?? [[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
----<br />
<br />
[[Image:LunaLodge drawing for OpenLunaTRIAL.gif|thumb|Revision 2 of Len Cross' Hab drawing||900px||]]<br />
---<br />
<br />
----<br />
[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]] Anyway -- to discuss my revisions. They are just beginnings, please discuss and revise them.<br />
The hab is inflatable. Much as I love Quonsets, they require a big heavy rigid floor because their internal pressure will try to blow the panel arches upward from the edges of the floor. This force also requires an unbendable floor and strong angle beams along the baseplate joining arches to floor. After the LunaCrete Factory is up and running and pouring slabs for Quonset huts, they will become the hab of choice.<br />
The hab endcaps are round for the same reason as the "floor" is round; joing a flat surface to a round surface creates a corner with huge bending force, ie, structural failure points which require strong angle beam reinforcement with a lot of joiner bolts. Can't afford the assembly time and can't risk the pressure leakage which WILL happen after the structure comes alive and flexes with pressure and temperature changes.<br />
And, of coarse, end caps are round because the hab has to be inflatable and you can't make a balloon with corners ;-]<br />
The hab has just one airlock. If the airlock doors fail, the crew must seek refuge in their Suits and/or in their Lander, mission will be compromised. Sorry. Airlocks are too big and heavy to afford redundancy. LunaDust is highly abrasive and hates hinges, these things MUST be perfectly sealed or the airlocks are soon doomed. So, the one airlock must be large enough for the five[?] crew to pile when the hab looses pressure. Being buried under tons of regolith is scary.<br />
<br />
If there's anything almost as good as exploring Luna, it's talking about it. [:-) Speak up. [Allen Meece]<br />
----<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]<br />
One airlock presents a set of problems, first and foremost is saftey. One way in and one way out could be very problematic. Second is dust mitigation, with the dust as fine and as abrasive as I have been led to believe, one set of filters and one vacuum draw down does not seem to be enough to minimize the appearance of dust in the living/work areas. One airlock also does not provide for easy expansion. The 3 airlock design would include a drawn down system for each with a centralized piping system that would allow each pump to be ganged with the others. This of course would provide redundancy and improve the draw down wait time by using all three pumps at once.<br />
----<br />
Hi Len, nice to meet you here in the hab shop!<br />
<br />
== Safety... ==<br />
One door is simpler than three and simpler is automatically safer. Less to ship, assemble and maintain, less to go wrong. If the hab loses pressure, the one airlock must be big enough to hold all five crew. That airlock has to be robust with dust-proof hinges and latches like on a submarine. Consider the submarine. They don't have extra doors because they don't allow bad doors since that could kill everyone on board. Doors can be made perfectly. The technology is perfected. <br />
Certain parts of any space project are Level One Importance, things which cannot be permitted to be chancey, things like wings on the shuttle, or its windshield, or its solid rockets, say. A single door on the hab would have to be the same priority. If the door fails, like the shuttle solids failed, people may die. Perfection isn't perfect and we have to live with that. [pun]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Dust Control. ==<br />
I don't think it can be banished by machinery, it requires '''strict''' clean discipline. In fact, reliance on machinery can induce laziness. The good news is the hab is inside a perfect vacuum cleaner. <br />
Prior to entering the airlock, perhaps there is a blow-off station outside the door where the dirtiest items are blown, maybe like an automatic car wash with air instead of water, which moonmen stand inside and turn around slowly many times.<br />
The airlock, which I propose to be a cleanroom, must be totally smooth inside, like a Teflon coating so dust can't grab hold. With the door open, the crew uses a hose to blow everything then removes the suit, hangs it up and blows it some more puts it away and steps inside the hab in stocking feet, like a Japanese tea house.<br />
These aren't perfect techniques, just a starting point for the cleanliness policy.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]<br />
<br />
===Dust/Talc===<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]From what I am told, the dust is finer than talc. Have you ever tried to blow talc off of fabric? No matter how hard you blow you will have a fine layer on the fabric of the suit when you enter the airlock. Perhaps both systems should be implemented. Not knowing the effect that regolith dust will have on the human body, I wouldn't want to say that filtering the living quarters would be a luxury. <br />
<br />
===Dust, Electric Talcum Powder===<br />
One big problem with RegoDust :-] is that it seems to have some sort of ionic charge that sticks it to MoonSuits like magnetism. To be candid, it won't all just blow off with a pressure air stream as I've proposed. So the clean room interlock I've proposed needs to have a wonderful, to-be-invented, de-ionizer blaster or something like that [8:0><br />
<br />
===De-Duster Gazebo===<br />
Seems good idea to remove most dust before going inside the front door! So I propose a permanent de-dusting station incorporated to all LunaHab plans. It has to be next to the front door with a catwalk grating leading to the front door.<br />
<br />
== Standard Module Construction ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Standard Module.jpg|thumb|900px|A proposal for the use of std construction modules [[user:Len|Len]].]]<br />
<br />
[[user:Len|Len]]]Using standard construction modules would cut down on design and manufacturing costs and provide the flexibility to rearrange the Outpost layout according to the terrain.<br />
+<br />
<br />
This is brilliant. All doors and door frames are standardized for the same reason.[[User:Navigaiter|Navigaiter]]</div>Len